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Shatterloop

laxan plays shatterloop

Posted February 4, 2020 by Laxan

Could you repost the link to your game? I'd like to try it out on my new gaming PC.

There are 17 Replies


@Laxan:
http://gtx0.com/projects/planes
I have to warn you though -- right now it's not a game so much as a collection of systems which might be glitchy and which also might not even be hooked in yet.

Also nothing saves whatsoever and won't for a while -- if you reload the page for some reason all your progress is gone.

What's working and is playable

  • Click reseed to get a new universe if you don't like the one you're seeing. This also destroys all progress on your current run, so it's better to do it in the beginning to find a dimension you like.

  • Press the arrow keys to move around. You can also use wasd, which makes sense in combat or if you're using the mouse a lot.

  • Press shift to go down a dimension or spacebar to go up a dimension.

  • Press x and when you move around the map you'll go faster and move through walls. Useful for getting out of glitched houses or just exploring. In the final game, this is the endhame dragon mount. Press x again to get out of this mode.

  • Press ` twice to warp to the nearest town, provided you're on dimension 0.

  • Press f and a direction to fish there if there's more than 15 connected water tiles there. Water are the flashing bluish tiles. I've covered the fishing system and its upgrades in this post.

  • You might see some colored tiles with a colon : in them. Those are resources. Step on them to collect them. They'll go into your inventory and you'll get a "discovery" on the left side. If you press [ (or maybe it's ], I forget) you'll switch to collecting resources as energy instead. Energy is also shop currency. Pressing that key again will go back to materials. You can also press m to map out all the discoveries in the dimension.

  • If you see a circular hole thing, stepping on it will make you enter a cave. You can also press b to enter a cave manually, or descend a cave level. Caves contain metal ores as resources, which currently don't do anything but can at least be sold.

  • Pressing n will make you go into the mana dimension shown at the top (Entropic, Quantum, Fire, Earth, Ice, Water, Wood, Wind). For easy testing, mana dimension can themselves have mana dimensions so pressing n shoukd cycle through them. Right now all they're doing is generating terrain differently,

  • When you're in a cave, you can press t to cycle through different random torches.

    Menus on the right

    Over on the right, you'll see several menus. Click on them to open that menu, or click them to close it.

  • Extract is how you get resources from raw materials. I've covered that recently in this post.

  • Crafting lets you craft several things, provided you have the resources for it. Right now the only one that's useful are torches.

  • Equipment lets you equip stuff. If you equip a torch, then in Caves you'll be able to see better in some way. It helps to make a bunch of torches out of a bunch of different materials and then choose the best. They're all quite different depending on the materials used. You can also equip weapons, you can buy axes in shops sometimes, and the combat works 90%, however there are no enemies. I'll probably stick what I have of the combat system into the life simulator so you guys can actually try that out too.

  • Map shows the province map. Provinces aren't currently working, so this is pointless.

    Towns

  • Each house is a square that has a door at the bottom. Step on the door and you'll enter or exit the house. When you enter a house, it'll generate.

  • Walk into @ tiles to access shops -- there's a variety of these that buy and sell items. Right now the only buyable items that do things are bait (worms or insects), torches, and axes (though those don't do much). You could also buy other materials for crafting I guess. You can also sell 90% of what you can collect in the game.

  • Walk into ^ to go up a floor, or v to go down a floor.

  • The other symbols are furniture. Walk into them to see their contents. You can take individual items or take all. It'll also show item values. I quite like the way this system turned out, although obviously I need to tweak the prices -- I robbed an entire town recently and made 14,000 flash.

  • If you get stuck in a house, remember to use x.

  • The bottom-right house is a Travel Shop. This lets you access other towns, and gives you their position and distance. Right now towns are arranged in a grid and generate infinitely. They're all a bit different from each other, though still kinda boring overall. In the future they'll be arranged according to the province map and the lines are the various travel paths. You'll also have infinite provinces to explore, but that's a mid-game thing.

  • If you get really stuck (like you went to a town with no travel shop or something), press p and a direction twice. This will warp you to dimension -5 and close to the origin.

    Things that work and are playable but aren't hooked into the main game
    http://gtx0.com/projects/planes/?init=town_test
    This works, but switching towns apparently doesn't. In any case it's a prototype for the Npc asking system. I've covered it elsewhere in this post.
    http://gtx0.com/read/my-lockpicking-puzzle-game-playable
    Here's a mini-game you can play which uses the lockpicking engine. You currently don't save progress, but I'll probably fix that soon so it's more accessible.

    Things which work but aren't playable

  • Enemy behavior, and combat more generally. I'll make a prototype for this.

  • The ruins generator is 99% done (well the base structures anyway). Might make a prototype for this as well -- wouldn't be hard to do.

  • Mana cracks are rendered and the entrances work. They're province-controlled so I can't add them in yet.

  • The trading system worked in the original game engine. It isn't hooked in because shops don't generate in other dimensions and that mechanic will also be different in the final game.

  • I had a neat little building engine which worked but was somewhat annoying. I'm going to recreate it so it has mouse controls and also flesh it out more.

  • January 16, 2020
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    I'll try to give it a go this weekend. Thanks!

    January 16, 2020
    Laxan

    Do the animals ever help the players?
    Do the animals ever fight the players?
    Do the animals ever help each other?
    Do the animals ever fight each other?

    January 17, 2020
    chiarizio
     

    Some of these have changed, so.

    Do the animals ever help the players?


    They do if you capture them in Quartz and summon them.

    Do the animals ever fight the players?


    If they're aggressive or you have a debuff that makes them irritated, yes. Or if you attack them and they have the self-defense trait.

    Do the animals ever help each other?


    Ideally, yes. Some of the harder ones can definitely heal, but a bigger factor is in telling them to defend a leader or telling them all to flee.

    Do the animals ever fight each other?


    Yes, if they're confused.

    January 18, 2020
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    I'm giving it a shot right now, Xhin.

    February 2, 2020
    Laxan

    Okay, I've taken a look at it. Here are my VERY rough thoughts.

    1.) The title is a good title. When naming a game, it's always good to give your game a name that intrigues people. Shatterloop is a title that rolls off the tongue well and just gets your attention.

    2.) What IS a shatterloop? Is it the main mechanic of the game? Is it something to be unveiled later?

    3.) Will this exclusively be a flash game?

    4.) I know this is a rough alpha, but I'll be honest: I DID NOT read anything you wrote in regards to the game before I started playing it. My reasons for this is, as someone who has tested a game in the past and someone who designs games, seeing how well-designed your game is in terms of teaching the player how to play your game. (The best-designed games do not need any prior reading in instruction manuals to teach players how to play it. However, some games will require reading prior to playing. But it is preferred to avoid that. Intuitive design is always the best course. Always.)

    5.) The way you move around reminds me heavily of Adventure on the Atari systems. It's also reminiscent of The Legend of Zelda, insofar as being dropped off in the middle of nowhere and you're expected to figure things out.

    6.) That said...what is the goal of this game? Does it involve crafting to find your way around?

    7.) I liked going into a cave! However, I couldn't find my way out. Do I need a torch to get out?

    8.) If crafting is the goal of the game in order to get around, why not try to find an intuitive means to teach players about crafting? For example, wouldn't it be good to let players find a Fish and Branch pretty much from the get-go, and immediately be able to craft a torch? Then, when players enter the cave, voila! They have a torch to use to find their way around (assuming that is your goal). Of course, you can also hide the materials needed to make a torch inside a cave (early in the cave, of course) and maybe there is something else that is needed to be crafted in order to enter a cave in the first place. Or something like that. Be intuitive and teach players early on what the purpose is for your crafting mechanic!

    9.) Teach players how to fish! It took me a while to figure out how to fish. Perhaps a button prompt appears when your character is exploring over water?

    10.) All of the fish keep getting away.....but I caught a couple! And....I can't make a torch from crafting.... Why?

    11.) As you can see, I, as a player, really, REALLY want to make a darn torch and go explore the dark caverns. Make it intuitive and easy to figure out how to craft from the get-go. Make it something simple to figure out at first, then introduce more complex crafting scenarios as players progress.

    12.) What is the point of reseeding? Like, why is it needed? Is randomly generated RNG really the best course of design for your game?

    13.) Reseeding isn't very appealing to me on a personal level. I don't enjoy randomly generated game design and RNG is best kept to a minimum. This is only if you WANT your game to be appealing to a wide variety of players. If you personally want to keep things in the realm of RNG, by all means, go for it. I'm just stating the fact that its appeal is only for a niche audience.

    14.) I'm not even going to comment on art and music as that clearly isn't a thing right now.

    15.) Keep it simple. This is advice from Toby Fox (developer of Undertale), and I as well as my game partner have found this to be the most profound piece of advice when developing a game.

    I hope some of this helps in some way, Xhin! Keep it up! Hopefully you check out my game someday, too.

    February 2, 2020
    Laxan

    Hi Laxan, thanks for the feedback! I haven't read through all of it yet, but it looks thorough.

    I will point out that the game is heavily in development right now -- it's not a beta or even an alpha yet. More of a demo / loose collection of systems at the moment.

    February 2, 2020
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    Longer response:

    1.) The title is a good title


    Thanks! I have gotten somewhat better at titles over the years.

    2.) What IS a shatterloop?


    It's complicated and ties heavily into the lore. Essentially, the world of shatterloop was one looping dimension that split into a very large number. The "reseed" button somewhat ties into that. Name and lore subject to change though (it was originally just called "planes" sooo).

    3.) Will this exclusively be a flash game?


    It's html and JavaScript, not flash. Runs on damn near anything, and if optimized enough could run easily on phones/tablets as well.

    my reasons for this is, as someone who has tested a game in the past and someone who designs games, seeing how well-designed your game is in terms of teaching the player how to play your game


    The problem with this is that I always do the documentation step last. I do definitely do it (and am apparently so good at it that I've gotten tech writing gigs), but the game is still too much in development to do that. Writing documentation / improving UX doesn't make sense when everything is subject to change.

    The best-designed games do not need any prior reading in instruction manuals to teach players how to play it. However, some games will require reading prior to playing. But it is preferred to avoid that. Intuitive design is always the best course. Always.)


    Oh yeah, I absolutely agree with that. Wait until you get a chance to try out combat, that's about as intuitive as it gets. :)

    6.) That said...what is the goal of this game? Does it involve crafting to find your way around?


    I'll get back to this question.

    7.) I liked going into a cave! However, I couldn't find my way out. Do I need a torch to get out?


    Well currently you can get out of caves by switching dimensions. It makes more sense to have some kind of button for it though. Was going to add this during the cave update -- would also let you do useful things like send out bats, use bombs or equip different torches / grappling hooks.

    For example, wouldn't it be good to let players find a Fish and Branch pretty much from the get-go, and immediately be able to craft a torch? Then, when players enter the cave, voila! They have a torch to use to find their way around (assuming that is your goal)


    Caves are actually more of an intermediate thing. Hard to see, dangerous and also a great way to squander resources. The starting progression tree is geared more towards fishing and hunting -- both of which are easy to make tools for from starting resources. You then take the resources gained from those activities to craft things useful for exploring caves. Assuming you can find one (might want to go into civilization for that).

    It took me a while to figure out how to fish.


    I'm highly surprised and also a bit impressed that you figured it out -- definitely not the most intuitive key binding at the moment.

    Perhaps a button prompt appears when your character is exploring over water?


    I like it!

    All of the fish keep getting away.....but I caught a couple!


    Fish have bait preferences and some are just harder to catch in general. You're currently not getting any of this information so. Revamping / polishing the fishing engine is my current project.

    And....I can't make a torch from crafting.... Why?


    Probably a bug. The recipe is wrong anyway.

    Make it intuitive and easy to figure out how to craft from the get-go.


    That's the eventual goal, yes. I like terraria's system of "unlocking" recipes as you gain new materials but goals are also nice so there will also be a little side menu to tell you things you *could* be crafting soon.

    Is randomly generated RNG really the best course of design for your game?


    It's the entire point of the game and ties in heavily to the lore, so yes.

    Reseeding


    Reseeding is currently a means to test different configurations of RNG generation.

    RNG is best kept to a minimum.


    hoooo boyyy. Not with this game.

    So, if I can take a minute to go over my design philosophy here, there's two big problems with traditional RNG generation:

  • Very boring generation. Sure it looks cool at first but eventually you start to see the same things over and over with maybe palette swaps or rearranged pieces. One huge issue is RNG "exploration" games that have a distinct lack of things to actually discover.

  • Giving the player way too much freedom and/or throwing too many choices at the player all at once. Just because it's an infinite open world doesn't mean you can't constrain things to make areas or experiences feel unique.

    To fix the first problem, there's a lot of layering happening -- RNG isn't happening at the base level but rather at several layers of abstraction above it. So with terrain generation for example, I can't really predict what it will do because I'm randomizing engine parameters rather than the terrain itself. With enemies there's multiple layers of randomization happening -- enemy moves are random, but so are the actual movesets, their weights, and how they change over time.

    For the second problem, I hold back. A lot. The amount of enemies you have to deal with at a time, the amount of resources you can access, and so on is very very limited. Highly useful shops are rare. Magic is very rare. What this does is it gives players a reason to experiment and a reason to learn -- instead of wandering around searching for something better you're stuck for quite a while making what you have work. Eventually the world opens up but it takes some work to get there.

    But yeah unfortunately limiting RNG just isn't how this game operates at all. There's a lot of fine handcrafting going on, but it's handcrafting of the RNG and the engines surrounding it.

    14.) I'm not even going to comment on art and music as that clearly isn't a thing right now.


    Might not ever be honestly. I'll definitely stylize it better before launch though. Game art also might not be physically possible because of how things work. There are probably workarounds though.

    15.) Keep it simple


    Well, not that kind of game ultimately. I've definitely simplified a lot of things over time though -- I try to make things funner rather than more complicated because good depth comes from putting simple pieces together in complex ways rather than doing simple things with complex mechanics.

    With combat for example, you swing a weapon, you throw it, you do something with something that's been thrown. That's it. The depth comes from what those actions can do depending on what the enemies and terrain in front of you are like. Weapons are also all somewhat different from each other, but this ties in heavily to the tactical mindset you get into rather than detracting from it -- you're still just swinging a weapon, throwing it or doing something with a thrown weapon.

    You get a lot of really difficult choices too -- I think that's really important in games. Have items that serve multiple purposes and force the player to choose between them. Good way to add depth without introducing complex mechanics. Crystals/magic are obviously the worst example, but there are things like extraction as well -- you can only get one material type from an item, so you have to decide whether you want scales or bones or meat or oil from a fish for example. Do you want to complete your bone armor set? Or eat better? Have more lures to experiment with? Make torches or bombs? If those are all goals then you have to decide what you're doing with the fish you caught.

    Then there's loot. That nice sword you found, you could use it. Or sell it. But you could also melt it down and try to use that ore for one of your projects. Or alloy it with your existing sword to upgrade it.

    Some things go deeper too -- that fish you caught, well sure you could extract scales, bones, etc. But you could also sell it. You could catch two and breed it. You could use it as bait to try to catch rarer fish.

    The trick with this kind of thing is making a lot of really robust systems-- they definitely need to be easy to use, but you can't skimp on their potential for some misguided goal of simplicity either. So yeah it's just not that kind of game, it's a kind of game that makes you experiment and think and strategize.

  • February 2, 2020
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    Is combat a thing right now? I didn't encounter any enemies.

    Isn't there a lockpicking mechanic too?

    There are ways to keep game design "simple" and intuitive without sacrificing strategy and experimentation. "Easy to pick up, challenging to master" is a matra that follows what I mean. Stardew Valley is probably a good example (and also why it's so popular--though it's not for everyone...like me... I'm not into Stardew Valley all that much). Even games like Mass Effect and the good Final Fantasies know to keep it simple at first before introducing more complex game choices and design.

    One REALLY popular game, although a very good game, that fails at simple game design is The Witcher 3. The game is great, and one of the best Western RPGs I've ever played. However, it's mechanics are not intuitive enough from the game's start (unlike another Western RPG like Mass Effect). Combat is not explained very well or intuitive enough to feel like you can get a basic grasp on how to fight effectively. The menus are cluttered and frankly far too overwhelming. And obtaining the materials needed to work with a black smith feels cumbersome at best. Also, throwing Gwent at you early on just piles on the already-complex game design that is way too overwhelming for the brain and a newcomer to the series.

    Again, great game....only after you've wasted your time as a player figuring out how it works. I do not reccomend wasting a player's time. Keep it simple. Keep it intuitive. That is the best advice I can give.

    February 2, 2020
    Laxan

    And....I can't make a torch from crafting.... Why?


    So this actually works fine on my end. You have to actually pick the torch and branch you're using though -- probably some confusion there since you probably only have one of each type. You also have to actually equip the torch. Once again good UX would help a lot -- cave-exclusive menus make a lot of sense.

    [...] I do not reccomend wasting a player's time. Keep it simple. Keep it intuitive. That is the best advice I can give.


    So you mean simple more in the sense of intuitive game mechanics / UI / UX. Yeah I can definitely get behind that. Once again though this is something I try to do after the engine is finalized. Unless things are getting dumb in the development stage. Rock knapping is a good example here -- cool concept but waaaay too much to throw at a new player. This is also why extraction is a separate menu from crafting despite literally being a form of crafting -- instead of hunting for what you want to make and selecting the resources for it you just zip through what you have. There are also things like bases having the base inventory available regardless of where you are in the base and then all the base functions being available from the same menu.

    I guess tl;dr the game will look a lot different when its systems get finalized.

    Is combat a thing right now? I didn't encounter any enemies. Isn't there a lockpicking mechanic too?


    Neither combat or lockpicking are hooked in right now but they do exist in some form. Some version of that update should happen pretty soon -- it's my current big project (just doing fishing at the moment to take a break from it). I built a little stand-alone lockpicking game here:
    http://gtx0.com/projects/planes/?init=lockpick
    Will probably remove flipping if I can't find a way around the exploit I found.

    February 4, 2020
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    6.) That said...what is the goal of this game? Does it involve crafting to find your way around?


    There's a pretty progressive system for opening up the world and its mechanics that goes something like this:

    1. Collect surface resources, use them to craft things useful for fishing and hunting.

    2. Go fishing and hunting to get resources useful for exploring caves.

    2b. Go to civilization so you can find your way to useful structures (like caves)

    3. Explore caves to get metal and quartz.

    4. Use Quartz to open up dungeons, and metal to make better weapons and armor so you don't die horribly.

    5. This step is somewhat still in progress, but it involves opening up mana dimensions, allowing you to visit other provinces and opening up dimensions outside the tetrad. At this point you're either doing the main quest or you have a big infinite sandbox to work with.

    I wouldn't say that's the "goal" of the game though -- that's just the way I'm setting up its natural progression. Each step introduces new mechanics that can be explored deeper if you want, which is more what the "point" of the game is -- it's more of a roleplaying experience than anything. There's still a main quest with a definite "ending" if you want it though.

    February 4, 2020
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    I think it's great that you're aiming to do a smaller project as your first game. My friend and I made the mistake of making a game that is too big for two people. But after we finish the second testing session, we're going to look into getting funding so we can work on the game full time and quit our day jobs. I hope it works out...

    February 4, 2020
    Laxan

    I've gone too far with this game a *bunch* of times but I always scale it back -- I would like to actually finish it at some point so I can spend time balancing and integrating it into more of a cohesive goal. It's still a big project, but it's way more manageable like this.

    I guess the best advice I can give you is to make your game as fun as possible. That seems to come down to a few different factors:

  • Grinding can be an important part of the game, but you should definitely try to reduce the amount of work and increase the amount of feedback with it. With shatterloop, collecting resources is fun because you can just walk right into them without issues, and there's a lot of response when you do. They're also usually on screen too, so you're already engaged in the next one once you collect one.

  • Make grinding valuable rather than done for normal everyday stuff. Collecting loot in dungeons or w/e in games is about as high-work as it gets, but no one ever complains because the loot is valuable. However people complain all the time about collecting resources in survival games because in that case you're grinding just to get normal items.

  • Make sure your players have multiple ways of achieving a goal. Having options like this allows them to take on their own preferred playstyle and increases their engagement. It also makes things significantly easier for you because you don't have to make the one single playstyle perfect.

  • Make your game hard. Not hard in an annoying inventory/resource management sense, hard in a difficulty sense. Provide challenges for the player to overcome. This pairs really well with the above point, because then the players are overcoming challenges due to their own unique ideas and experiments.

  • Make your game roleplayable. This is difficult to define exactly but the basic idea is to connect your players with the character on a deeper level. Having a lot of options and playstyles definitely helps, but there are simpler concepts like hunger mechanics or some form of homesteading/building that help a lot. Even just customization options helps with this -- I played a racing/ sport game recently that was made so much better by their "useless" but thorough car customization system. With Shatterloop, there's a lot of this going on.

  • Don't have the game be fully handcrafted, but don't have it be fully random either. A little randomness can add a lot of replay value and can also make things easier for you (because perfectly handcrafted games take way more than a couple people to pull off). However you don't want any part of the game to be fully random either, because that'll make it boring. So you've got to find the right balance for your game and randomize only the areas that make sense.

    Shatterloop is a bit different because the randomness is a central part of the game. There is however a lot of handcrafting going on below the surface -- a lot of design to contain and focus the random elements.

    What kind of game did you and your friend overreach with?

  • February 4, 2020
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    We are making a 2D fantasy, story-driven action RPG. It takes a lot of work and it was too much for only two people. We had to scale back a lot. But we got unique features working such as magic working in real time as both a tool to solve puzzles and fight enemies. Co-op multiplayer, a rarity in action RPGs. And there's customization in a few different ways.

    We shared a demo with you for our first testing session, but we never heard back from you before the session was closed.

    February 5, 2020
    Laxan

    We shared a demo with you for our first testing session, but we never heard back from you before the session was closed.


    Yeah that ended up being way way too complicated of a project for a testing session, and I had a lot of other stuff going on at the time. Sorry about that.

    I also think many of those questions don't give you actually useful data -- if it was me I'd want to know how specific parts of the game (story, gameplay, that magic system you mentioned) were coming across rather than how similar the game was overall to a tester's favorite games. I'd also like to know *how* users are playing -- what kind of playstyle they're taking, what kinds of things they were experimenting with, etc. That can tell you a lot about how good your UX is, and if it's consistently way off from your own notes you might want to rethink things.

    February 5, 2020
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    Hm, was the game complicated or were the instructions complicated? We'll try to be more transparent in future sessions where possible based on feedback. We had to take special measures to ensure our IP was protected, hence agreeing to an NDA. It is an RPG, so the game's coding is complex by nature (which is why we provided a Notepad document for Error Logs and Instructions). The game itself...fairly straightforward, and where it's not straightforward we try to teach the player as intuitively as possible (which we further improved upon after the testing session). I think asking people to take notes while they play might seem overwhelming...but that's all part of testing video games. We also did not expect everyone to get back to us. That's just how it is when you don't have money to pay people to test your game.

    Those questions mostly did address story and gameplay. We probably should have been more specific about magic and UI and menus, yeah. We'll probably add an additional five questions regarding magic, UI, menus, the jewels/potions/customization, and the map system--some of which were not in the initial tester's demo. We'll also probably alter some questions to reflect how tester's feel about specific areas/dungeons. The questions also make more sense if you play the tester's demo, of course.

    It is actually very important to know if your game is similar to a tester's preferred type of game. This way you know their perspective when they test your game. Not everyone plays fantasy JRPG-like games, and we felt that we could get some invaluable feedback/criticism from people who do not really play indie RPG games. (And the feedback was indeed very helpful to us.)

    Our questions were based on research for testing, so the scale of one to five questions are actually some of the most useful for data and feedback (based on our research, at least). It's also good not to overwhelm tester's--especially if they aren't paid--with too many questions. 20 questions is a good amount. There's also open-ended questions on our sheet, like "If you were a developer on this game, what would you add or change about it?"

    As for knowing HOW people played the game, a few people DID record their blind playthroughs for us (like Jet Presto). Super helpful. We also observed people playing it without us telling them what to do (and we took notes as they played). Trust me, we got a lot of useful feedback from the way we tested our game and it has helped us better design our game.

    February 6, 2020
    Laxan

    @chiarizio: These have changed again! Probably the final version here.

    Do the animals ever help the players?


    The animals themselves don't, but they can drop eggs which can be raised into Pets useful for riding or scouting.

    Do the animals ever fight the players?


    Yes, if they're aggressive enough or you get too close.

    Do the animals ever help each other?


    No.

    Do the animals ever fight each other?


    No.

    August 15, 2020
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

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